- And this is why "mandatory app to configure" is an instant dealbreaker for me for any piece of hardware. Don't buy crap like this. Force companies to be better.
- When buying fridge, washing machine, oven etc, when I moved, I told the sales person, I like quality, am not price sensitive, but any device that requires an app or has a camera/mic built in is out of question. Some didn't know how to handle that, being used to sell it as a "good thing".
- fridge, washing machine, oven etc, [...] Some didn't know how to handle that
I am surprised, all the European brands like Miele, Siemens, Bosch, etc. household appliances work fine without an app. Most that we have now do have an option to connect to WiFi, we never connected them and they all work fine with good old buttons like it's 1985.
- There is a dishwasher from Bosch, that misses some features if you are not using the App - cost-cutting measures. Jeff Geerling made a video about that:
- Sad. I will check the next time before buying a Bosch product.
Though my main point is, that it is not hard to find products that work fine without an app. E.g. I just checked the Bosch site and could find many models that support delayed start, etc. with on-device buttons. In fact, the one that I picked somewhat randomly, the primary feature the app adds is that you can start the dishwasher remotely, which is the only feature I'd expect to need an app for.
(I completely believe that some of these manufacturers will also have models where they save on on-device buttons/displays by requiring an app.)
- Ugh, we have BSH [Bosch Siemens Group] appliances with wifi, but ours add actual features and don't artificially lock any. Both dryer and washing machine: Remote start, start when energy is cheap, notifications when done or on issues. The dryer can automatically select the program based on the last washing machine program. For the washing machine program I can use the phone to select what I put in there, and it picks a program for me.
However, I can also use the dials much like I did with our old appliances. There is nothing locked out and we actually used them offline for a few weeks (tbh I didn't try setting the finish time using the appliances' controls).
In Jeff's case that's obviously not the case, but there are still options from BSH. As with everything, one has to be careful in what they buy these days. Don't interpret this as victim blaming: I hate that we have to be careful with these traps.
Edit: There are of course alternative manufacturers, but BSH ist a known quantity regarding quality. And when it comes to cloud stuff I trust them a little bit more than other manufacturers; they're actually the only smart thing we own that's not blocked in my OpnSense.
- I said that about cars on here and got called all kinds of an idiot for not wanting electrically-operated door handles, an always-on phone connection, and screens bigger than the telly in my living room.
- XFinity (Comcast) recently sent my parents a new router, and AFAICT there was no way to configure it from a LAN computer.
It required a damn proprietary phone app, which I assume was bouncing commands through the internet.
- I'm not familiar with Comcast's specific hardware, but it also possible that the router is always broadcasting a hidden SSID, or is using Bluetooth for setup and configuration. Both of which are also potentially problematic.
- don't rent your router
- I was assured many times that it wasn't being charged to them as a recurring cost
- This has been a problem for a while, Xfinity has the high-speed fiber but the only routers they supply were emerging apptrash for a while, then recently got even worse with none or almost none of the features accessible without a phone any more.
Your best option is to purchase your own cable modem/router and quit renting that garbage hardware from Comcast.
Or kick them to the curb and go cableless using Verizon with a router that's worth paying for.
- > I like quality, am not price sensitive but any device that requires an app or has a camera/mic built in is out of question
You probably meant "I want no frills product because of its simplicity, not because its cheap" but when that feedback reaches a PM, they'll only hear "I will pay more to not have a camera or a mic".
- This is not correct, for me at least.
I want a very good washing machine with frills, but it want it to wash well and quietly without needing to be configured from my phone over wifi.
- The home appliance market is a scam fractal. It goes deeper than just ewaste.
Nobody wants to admit it, but they are more home decor and geewhiz BS than practical appliance for several decades now. You'll be perfectly fine buying cheap barebones models if you are repair savvy. Choosing colors and materials like black or white and stainless steel is "boring", but only if the surrounding space is already ugly.
I've had the same no name amazon special washer and dryer for almost 15 years now. Reviews were 3/5 stars at the time. People complained about belts slipping and hinges breaking. I just fixed them with parts on ebay. They still look and run like new.
- I paid £50 more for a washing machine without wifi/app.
- I have an HP wifi printer, 5820 I think. I haven't signed in to HP, haven't connected the printer to cloud.
Same for anything else. I don't see the whole "oh you need firmware update to improve the product". 90% of the time it just works.
So what happens if the fridge isn't given internet access ? Or washing machine?
- Companies are beginning to gate previously existing features behind the requirement to connect their devices to the cloud and/or install an app on your phone.
Dishwashers, refrigerators, even (and perhaps especially) cars.
"Just don't connect it to the Internet," is sadly less viable option as time goes on.
- >"Just don't connect it to the Internet," is sadly less viable option as time goes on.
I feel compelled to quibble with your word choice here. Not connecting appliances to the Internet remains a viable option. It is simply one that is increasingly not common or not readily available.
- I'm confused. This is what they said?
"less viable option as time goes on" is pretty much "remains a viable option, increasingly not common"
?
- This may just be me being idiosyncratic with vocabulary.
To me, "less viable" implies there some outside factor or internal failure preventing it from working. But non-internet appliances will continue to work just fine, if you can get one. I.e. it's a viable choice, just one with less and less availability.
- That's interesting, thanks!
- > I haven't signed in to HP, haven't connected the printer to cloud.
HP fixed a remote exploit a few years back. Theoretically someone could use your local wifi printer to install a persistent backdoor on your network. In practice HP uses updates to patch leaks in their cartridge protection (the most complicated tech in the printers). And accidentally sometimes bricks printers...
- Nothing, they just work as intended. I bought a Fujitsu A/C that supposedly required registering through some app. Never connected it, and I removed the wifi kit at installation. Works like a charm no problem whatsoever.
- If it's a "router" and you can't install a OpenWRT on it, then it's an absolute no-brainer to not to buy it.
- To whom? How many people who have bought these things ever heard of OpenWRT? How many of those are capable of installing it?
Have you ever considered upgrading your refrigerator? Washing machine? Kettle? A router is a transparent appliance to most people.
- The point is somewhat less that you will do it, as being able to do it implies a certain level of sanity to what you're buying + the ability to use the hardware even if the software goes away in some undefined-yet-predictable fashion.
It's sorta like checking if spare parts are available for your refrigerator or washing machine.
- And that's why we educate others and let them know about their options. You have to start somewhere.
- checks domain
- For most non-technical people this is irrelevant. Even if the router supported OpenWRT, they wouldn't know how to install it, let alone how to configure it.
Luckily, many (but certainly not all) continental West-European ISPs allow you to lease a Fritz!Box or you can buy one in a store and hook it up [1]. Perfect router/modem for consumers (not too complicated), can be configured through a web interface, and the hardware and software is developed by a German company.
[1] Many European countries have router/modem freedom, so an ISP cannot block you if you want to hook up your own gear. E.g. quite some tech people here use their own XGS-PON fiber ONT or at least their own router + modem.
- The British ISP I tend to recommend gives you a Frtizbox (included with monthly package with 12 month contract, but becomes your property), but most will include a router with their package, usually a rubbish one, and most people do not care about having a good router.
- And who do you recommend?
- Zen for most people. Reasonable pricing, good customer service, reasonable latency and a good router.
I was reluctant to recommend them by name because I know there are other good ISPs, some are cheaper, some are more expensive, some operate only in certain areas (if they do not use Openreach local loops).
- I got a new lease on life for a bunch of old/slow MyBook WD Live NAS devices -- OpenWRT installs onto these PowerPC devices, rather easily.
- I'd suggest buying the OpenWRT One. I've bought a bunch, and I think it's terrific.
- I'm waiting for the second version (supposedly has a better number of RJ45; that's where the "One" was a bit limited and an extra switch would have been required in the setup)
- I was just looking at the One recently and lamenting it only has two network ports. I would have bought one if it had three.
Instead I went with a Gl.inet device with three interfaces.
- The One is nice if you want to support the OpenWrt project, but if you want raw power, the GL.iNet Flint 2 (MT6000) is a much better choice. Faster SoC, 1GB RAM, 8GB storage, one more 2.5 GBe port, twice as fast WiFi 6, and also supports vanilla OpenWrt.
- I've put OpenWRT on the Flint 2, and I've had issues with connectivity that I don't have with OpenWRT on a Linksys router. I need to disconnect and reconnect every so often. I'd read that this is due to the Mediatek modem not being as well supported, but I'm not sure how to diagnose.
- Have the same router (Flint 2), and had a similar issue in the past. After I configured SSIDs with different names on the radios (i.e. the SSID is either configured on radio0 or radio1, not both), I didn't encounter this anymore. YMMV, but this helped me - perhaps it'll prove useful to you as well.
And besides this issue, overall it works great. I recommend this to anyone who asks me about it.
- I think the cost is good too? Decent amount of ports, kinda like a boxless mikrotik.
I've considered it, if I can get fiber here I will definitely get one for my segment, and maybe my resell segment too.
- I don't disagree, but it's funny that Apple's AirPort routers, which have been axed almost a decade ago, can still be configured with the AirPort app. Years ago, I temporarily hooked up an old AirPort Extreme to replace a broken router, and it even got an update (probably a security update).
At any rate, I think as much as web vs. app, IMO companies should be forced to support their appliances for a certain time period by law (the EU has rolled out a law to require this for some device types). If it was normal for a router to work for 10 years or a washing machine for 20 years, a vendor should be forced to support it for that amount of time since the last sale.
- > And this is why "mandatory app to configure" is a dealbreaker
More and more IP cameras can't be set up without a phone app. TP-Link's Tapo line is really bad about it. Even some Reolink cameras can't be setup on their own.
Now that high quality, affordable brands like Dahua got banned (w/o evidence), there's less pressure on the survivors to not be awful.
- More and more IP cameras can't be set up without a phone app.
More evidence that this isn't about cost at all, but control. Fortunately, the good old-fashioned "dumb" ones that just have a tiny web server to serve their configuration and viewing UI still exist, seemingly at both the ultra-cheap (unbranded/random brand ones from China based on a reference design, built by companies with no desire to host anything) and ultra-expensive (Axis, Bosch, etc.) ends of the market; the middle is entirely filled with the "smart" "cloud" crap.
- Reolink has always been like that, but at least they aren't a random no-name brand that could disappear at any minute.
- Neither is Motorola. And yet ...
The company doesn't have to go away, the app just has to have issues. At least with web apps, you aren't depending on the manufacturer investing in nearly continuous upgrades to work in the rapidly changing phone environment
A web UI will continue to work for decades. And app will likely not last a year without updates.
- I probably should have clarified I'm fine with PC apps for setup but abhor phone apps. I keep junk phones around for when I have no other choice.
I just installed 10 Reolinks and I had to set up a phone app for two of them that didn't have an Ethernet connector. Ick.
I have one Tapo and ran their app from an android emulator. I won't buy another.
- This is quite literally one of my two grievances against Ubiquiti at the moment: its intense requirement for mobile apps for initial setup.
Stop mandating apps that will eventually break or cease being supported. Give us an OOBE that can be run independent of some mobile app.
- I don’t think I’ve ever _needed_ to use the Unifi mobile app. When I connect something to my network, it shows up in the Unifi controller web app ready to adopt.
- I was able to install there controller software on pretty much any PC (windows or linuix) and adopt and configure APs. No phone required. Not sure about other networking gear.
- I was also able to set this up entirely with a web interface.
- I just wish:
- it was more clear when buying a product that an app is required to activate/use/etc a device
- that people who rebelled against this kind of nonsense were backed up by others and respected "more power to you!"
- Friend of mine had some (non-Motorola) router that her ISP provided her and the only way to set it up was through an app. The first time I ran into this I couldn't believe it, there was simply no way to set this piece of s*t up without using the app, which (a) didn't work until we'd spent ages faffing around with it and (b) was just a glorified set of different wizards that let you set things up in a few fixed preconfigured ways.
- I recommend telling the ISP that you do not own a smartphone.
- They'll just send a technician to set it up.
- I fear that this will eventually happen to all Amazon Eero products, which has partnerships with telcos in my country for "free" routers.
- I haven't been in the market for a WiFi router for a long time so I thought all the consumer stuff still used a web server for config. Enterprise stuff is either the same or has a serial port. In any case, it doesn't make sense to require a separate app that they also have to spend resources maintaining when their users will already have a browser they can use, so I suspect the only reason is the app collects usage information that they can sell...
On the bright side, maybe someone can get Claude or some other LLM to figure out how to crack it; and perhaps even vibe-code an alternative app.
- > On the bright side, maybe someone can get Claude or some other LLM to figure out how to crack it; and perhaps even vibe-code an alternative app.
LLMs are great for this, though the more people use it for blackhat style things, the more I fear they will lockdown LLMs which are useful for reversing things that are legacy as heck and abandonware.
- I listened to an interview with the guy who nearly cured his dog's cancer with ai and he expressed concern multiple times that going public with the story would cause the labs to cut off the ability.
- For reference for other readers, here's the primary source: https://x.com/paul_conyngham/status/2036940410363535823
Also, thanks for mentioning! I wasn't aware of this
- Thanks for this. Absolutely incredible read.
I'm really hoping these new tools will empower a new generation of people. It's sad that there even needs to be a term 'citizen scientist'.
- Wow, that is one of the best use cases for AI I've seen. I wonder what the cost of all that was.
- What is it with the AI bros that seemingly can’t write two pages without their precious LLM doing it for them. It could be a genuinely cool story, but I’m just put off by the LLMism everywhere
- Tbf in this case it might also just be that the guy talked _extensively_ over years with those LLMs, shaping language.
At least nothing tipped me off for that specific text. What did you see?
- Nearly?
- It greatly shrank some of the tumors but not all.
- I've been doing some light reverse engineering with Chinese models on Opencode and have found they are already far less reluctant. Just don't ask about Taiwan..
- Regular consumers increasingly use apps to do stuff instead of web browsers. They seem to prefer it this way.
And at least for connected devices at home, a dedicated app can have lower friction for initial setup for the "I'm not a computer person" crowd than other alternatives do.
(I know, I know. It's terrible. It even feels something like betrayal sometimes. But that's how it be, anyway -- and you and I are powerless to do anything about it.)
- They seem to prefer it this way.
Strong doubt. What's lower friction, "visit this address in your browser and login to start configuring" vs. "go download this app, open it, possibly log in and register an account, add 'your' device, and only then start to configure it"?
Let's also not forget the possible chicken-and-egg situation of needing the Internet to download an app to setup your new router to access the Internet...
- I’d never defend the lack of web based configuration, but there is an argument to be made that if the app uses Bluetooth to communicate with a router (though I don’t know if that’s true in this case), it is inarguably easier to configure for the average person who is intimidated by having to work with an IP address in any way.
- You're obviously one of those computer people.
- No — regular people use QR codes all the time.
Point your phone at the QR sticker on the router, click open, boom you’re on the config page!
That’s a faster experience, doesn’t require any searching, doesn’t require wondering if you downloaded the right app, doesn’t require you sign up, etc.
Your claim people prefer apps to QR codes is highly doubtful.
- > Your claim people prefer apps to QR codes
I claimed what?
- You claimed they don’t like browser based flows — of which QR codes are the common low friction, smartphone friendly implementation/entrypoint.
Ie, what normal people use regularly every day.
- because apps can't use their own protocol:// and use QR codes within their native apps? sorry but this comment doesn't seem to make sense
- The point he's making is that a QR-based flow that doesn't require downloading and installing an app, and instead uses the already-installed web browser, is even lower friction and can be used by ordinary folks just as well, if not better, thanks to having fewer friction points. Requiring an installed proprietary app to manage a physical device that would otherwise be manageable via a web interface is not a net improvement to the usability or accessibility of the product. Especially if it's something you set and forget, "normies" are not going to go back to that app for a very long time and likely will forget about it. Hard requiring app setup for a router is a play to sell usage and location data, it is not looking out for those that aren't "computer people".
- Cloud command and control is obviously a better user experience, and it is much more secure.
- There is no way in which opening external control is more secure than local-only control.
What is this FUD?
- > What is this FUD?
For whatever it's worth, I associate the term FUD with crypto bros. Both of you simply stated an assertion at fact and then flipped out when someone deigned to defy that. Maybe argue your points properly?
- FUD existed before them. So did the word crypto, as a matter of fact.
That's two things they ruined.
While we're at it, I think them claiming the term Web 3.0 is very self-aggrandizing.
- > FUD existed before them. So did the word crypto, as a matter of fact
Yup. But as a broad signal, is the person getting uppity about FUD usually making a valid point or safe to ignore?
- It depends on whether you or not you like the cut of their jib.
- I think the comment you're replying to is missing a /s
- > And at least for connected devices at home, a dedicated app can have lower friction for initial setup for the "I'm not a computer person" crowd than other alternatives do.
For a router? This is the device that you will often not have internet access with which to download an app until after it's configured. Many people have wired internet specifically because they live somewhere with poor cellular reception. Meanwhile the device can give out DHCP and use the standard captive portal mechanisms to automatically direct any client device to its configuration page.
- Yep. For a router.
I didn't say that I thought it was right, or fair, or just. I didn't say I liked it, or that I agree with it.
In fact, I think it's a pretty ugly state of affairs when a person in an area of poor connectivity needs to climb the hill/go into town/otherwise make plans before they can get their shiny new router to work.
I can accept that things are the way they are, or I can pretend that they're different.
Acceptance seems to be a lot more honest.
- You made the claim that companies require apps because it has lower friction for ordinary users. That claim is in error.
The implication that there is nothing anyone can do to improve the existing state of affairs is also incorrect.
- > You made the claim that companies require apps because it has lower friction for ordinary users.
I did not.
> That claim is in error.
My motivation to further discuss a hallucination is insignificant.
- If only the app could be stored on the router.
Unfortunately the only tech stack that can do this is the web, (serial/remote shell comes close).
In fact I regard this as the major failure of the app method of program deliverance. Why do you need to install them at all? It should be like the web, hit an address load the app. It is why I am thankful that the web was not developed as a commercial project. No for-profit entity would have let it escape their control like that. It would have been designed exactly like the app system for phones is. enforced central blessed "app-stores" and manual install processes.
- I'm not sure they prefer it. I think tech companies have been pushing apps as the default solution for a long time and people accept it because they just want to do whatever thing is locked behind the app.
If the default was something else I suspect people would accept that too, especially if it was lower friction.
I'd say typing a few characters into an address bar (or scanning a QR code) is, at the least, not higher friction than downloading an app and creating an account.
- > “It suddenly stopped working, and no one knows why.”
Based on the screenshots I’m going to hazard a guess that it’s because someone forgot to update, or just stopped paying for, the server license.
- If these apps were entirely local nobody'd care.
The insistence they go through a server is why they suck
- So many things rely on date bound certificates now that local doesn't assure continued operation, see the recent Mac Office 2019 stories. I feel like there are so many of these ticking time bombs that expired cert based software failures are going to become a much more common issue.
- Or a key employee who was handling that died, quit, or was fired.
- there is an explanation: Motorola is extremely bad at software.
opinion based on their support system, correspondence and android updates,
- These WiFi products and the associated app aren’t actually from Motorola.
As mentioned in the article, they are products of Premier LogiTech, LLC, who have licensed the Motorola brand name.
- I don't know, my first "smart" phone was a Motorola Atrix 4G. You know, that one with (one of) the first fingerprint scanner and that thingy that allowed you to dock it to something like a laptop and thus you'd have a working laptop thingy.
Its wifi/bt card broke exactly one year after I bought it. It worked exactly for 365 days. That was 100% hardware failure and planned obsolescence.
Needless to say never bought not even looked at anything Motorola ever since.
- There is no singular Motorola. The company has been spinning off different parts of itself for quite a long time.
In 2011/2012, it was divided into different parts. The biggest were Motorola Solutions (mostly focused 2-way radios and related communications infrastructure; stuff commonly used by public safety entities) and Motorola Mobility (mostly cell phones and related stuff).
Google bought Motorola Mobility. It has been said that this was because Google wanted their patent portfolio. In 2014, Google sold Motorola Mobility to Lenovo: The same Lenovo that makes ThinkPads is also who makes Motorola phones today.
Somewhere along the line, their name also got licensed out for home networking bits. That appears to be the products that the Mashable article writes about. This history is murkier, but it appears that some combination of Premier LogiTech and Boundless Devices (whoever tf these companies are) is responsible for making the Motorola-branded routers in question.
---
tl;dr, the Motorola that makes the radios that cops carry on their hip, the Motorola that makes Android phones that consumers carry in their pocket, and the Motorola that makes home routers are not the same company. Like -- at all.
Conflating them is easy because it is, frankly, a confusing mess.
But still: The shitty software on a Motorola phone is not cut from the same cloth as the shitty software on a Motorola router. They're products of very different companies that share nothing but a common trademark.
- Ah yes, just like that time Kodak licensed their name out to make checks... air purifiers? (Bonus points: their brand licensee on most of that crap is now out of business.)
https://www.kodak.com/en/consumer/page/support/
(Or Memorex electric scooters. That's also an 'okay then...' license...)
- Is there really no jurisdiction in which this is illegal?
- Give it a try, take Motorola to small claims court. don't be greedy but see if you can get them to spend a couple thousand in lawyer expenses for a couple hundred of claim.
AFAIK, more Motorola routers are installed by cable ISPs than anywhere else. Many or most have WiFi. I can't imagine cable installers are futzing with a phone app.the Motorola MotoSync+ app is required to set up all new compatible WiFi routers released by Motorola- You'd be surprised, at work we recently had a contractor install a new office network (growing startup upgrading from the home grade units we had before), they recommended HP Aruba Instant On, and the guy did all the setup on his phone with their app.
Now that it's my network to manage, I have to say that while it's a huge upgrade from the TP-Link Deco units we had before, the cloud management just makes it worse. The web UI is slow, probably because every click requires a round trip from my laptop, to a datacenter somewhere, to the router/switch/AP 5m away from me, back to the datacenter, and back to my laptop.
- Ridiculous to have no way to configure a router via some normal method, like local web UI or serial/ssh console, or whatnot. Even more ridiculous this app does not satisfy itself with a local wifi/bt link to the router, and needs some "server" with "expiring license" whatever that is. Triple ridiculous this costs more than $50.
- explanation - they made wifi routers?
- I don't know what happened here, but if someone told me that a manager fired all of the dev team and replaced them with cheaper overseas replacements, I wouldn't be surprised.
- Years ago a small telco I worked for bought an equipment from rather reputable manufacturer at some point. A year or so later we discovered a grave bug in the software. There was a month or so silence from manufacturer and they just bought all equipment back. We found out later that entire team working on this equipment was fired during restructuring by accident (!) and there wasn't any knowledge about this equipment left in the company.
- It would've been even cheaper if they didn't need a dedicated app at all.
- AI replacements
- The original AI anyway
- Without minimizing the impact, we should not blow it out of proportion, either. It sounds like every existing installed device continues to work. "Bricked" is used too expansively here.
- If you walk into a BestBuy and purchase a new one today, it arrives pre-bricked. That seems to meet the definition just fine
- That's not what bricked means. Bricked is a one-way trip to permanent non-function. For example, overwriting the firmware with firmware that can't boot and also can't update again.
The events in the article are a simple, transient backend malfunction.
- “Bricked” is always a matter of perspective. Sure, the manufacturer can almost always unbrick a device, but the end user here cannot, because the manufacturer is not supplying the requisite tools
- [dead]
- Probably AI.
- Motorola was my last Android phone. Once they pushed an update that took 99% of my phones memory and I couldn’t install even a single app - I moved to iPhone and never looked back. Over 10 years and counting. I still can’t believe they literally bricked my phone back then.
So far Apple “just works”. Is it perfect? No. But I can’t imagine fuckup of this magnitude from them.
- To each their own, I moved back to Android from iOS because it "just works", having to factory reset my device to install apps again after an iOS update was the last straw.
- Many things in Android sphere 'just work', we have open standards and market forces to thank for that.
apple airpods pro 2nd gen 'just don't work' with say samsung phones (s24 in our case) - constant disconnections, pairing fails maybe 50% of the time. Come with apple phone to very same plugs, and they 'just work'. Over effin' bluetooth that chinese plugs for 10 bucks have figured out better.
Wake me up when I can go on filesystem and copy to my computer any damn file I want from the device running unix kernel that I supposedly own, like photos and videos I took, over open standard usb.
187 points by thisislife2 1 day ago | 119 comments