We made a lot of progress with htmx, but eventually hit a complexity wall where we were spending more time fighting the tool than solving the business need. Note, I'm not blaming htmx here, the documentation is clear about its strengths and limitations, and the hypermedia approach is still fundamentally right. But even with alpinejs in the mix, we just weren't able to achieve the smooth developer experience we were looking for.

So we tried datastar, and it basically addressed all the friction points we had:

  - No more DOM hunting to figure out why the hx-get ended up in the wrong spot or why OOB swap is glitching out. D* morph just works.
  - No need for hidden form <input> to submit client state, D* signals are cleaner and easier to use.
  - No more micro-routes for targeted element updates to avoid hx-swap butchering page state. One route per page, just render the whole thing and morph takes care of the rest. Immediate-mode rendering and fat morphs removed ~50% of our routing table.
  - SSE + fat morph is a superpower. This is view = f(state) done right.

The great news is htmx4 is adopting many of these ideas, so I recommend trying both and seeing what fits you best.

Once you want realtime/collaborative app SSE + morph lets you do that easily. Add streaming compression and this approach is suddenly crazy bandwidth efficient.

For people coming from react this gives you v = f(state) over the wire.

Lastly signals handle the edge cases where an out of bound morph would nuke your ephemeral client side state (mostly text input).

You can do this in htmx but you are fighting the design the whole way. Turbo is a bit better but doesn't have signals.

[1] https://dev.37signals.com/a-happier-happy-path-in-turbo-with...

Basically, if your html fat morph frames are 65kb uncompressed and you make a small change like checkbox it will send 13bytes so that's 5000:1. Caveat is as long as your compression context window is big enough.

One of the cool things is how extensible d* is. Everything is a plugin, and you are free to extend it to suite your needs. We've invested a few days building a few specific data-* attributes for our application and it's super convenient.

But now I want to add a JSON API to the program: I could reuse the same routes (/create, etc), but require an application+json header; or add a full /api/ component essentially duplicating the logic from the main app.

Neither option is great.

react-three-fiber solves a lot of problems. React state is also perfectly in line with game loop architecture, r3f unifying the Three.js/React render loop is incredibly good for game dev.

But even for SaaS or whatever, I need to know that it can handle complex states of the UI - HTMX can't.

They are overselling it. It's not really a competitor to React, it's more like a competitor to Jade templating or HAML which nobody already uses anymore.

Radio waves caught up in developed countries with 4G roll outs in my opinion(is that mid 2010’s?).

Large client side JS has been garbage for most things since it’s inception.

My favourite thing about TSX is that it is typechecked. How do you do that with random strings of HTML?